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Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar fcaracol » Ven Jan 06, 2017 2:38 am

Hello, I'm having problems with a Technibel PHRT12 and need your help.

I live in Portugal (Algarve) and I have at home a Solar water heater with 800L in the basement that is heated by solar panel on the roof. And I have a Technibel PHRT12 to help in the cold days, outside (next to the Solar water heater). I use the hot water for take a bath and heat the floor.

Since the end of November I've turn on the Technibel PHRT12 because the days started to be cold and the solar panel wasn't enough.

In the first 5 day every thing seems ok, but then started to have the Error E01 on the Technibel. Every day in the morning before I get out of the house and in the afertnoon when I arrive home. I've done some reading on this forum and made some chages on the Technibel configuration:

D04: 60 -> 45
D05: 5 -> 3
F21: 1 -> 1
F22: 20 -> 18
A14: 3 -> 30

I guess the A14 was the problem. I notice that the Technibel still give the Error E01 but now it restarts automatically, don't stop. The pressure when it was stoped was 1,25 BAR now is near 2 BAR (some times more, some times less).

The Technibel is configured to stop at 50Cº. The floor is programed to stop at 20Cº (room temperature) in every room in the house.

In the end of the month of December I receive a bad surprise, the electricity bill.

I've checked electricity consumption application and here is what I find out (daily average):

Jan 2017
Line1 - 15,807 kW
Line2 - 1,936 kW
Line3 - 8,124 kW

Dez 2016
Line1 - 15,815 kW
Line2 - 1,733 kW
Line3 - 7,890 kW

Nov 2016
Line1 - 3,822 kW
Line2 - 1,654 kW
Line3 - 1,699 kW

Out 2016
Line1 - 2,521 kW
Line2 - 1,467 kW
Line3 - 1,392 kW

Set 2016
Line1 - 2,057 kW
Line2 - 2,074 kW
Line3 - 0,968 kW

Aug 2016
Line1 - 2,085 kW
Line2 - 2,313 kW
Line3 - 0,778 kW

Comparing the month of October (full month without Technibel) with the month of December (full month with Technibel) I get a 5X my normal electricity consumption, that is a lot.

I need your help to configure my Technibel to reduce the electricity consumption.

--
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Fernando
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar jld82 » Sam Jan 07, 2017 11:56 am

Hi Fermando , welcome

The E1 error is an High presure detection , sometime the water speed is no good , clean up the filter mounted on input water or/and put the circulator speed on 3.

The water pressure is varing 1,25 to 2kg : control your expansion balloon, initial presure to 1kg/cm

Parameters PHRT
a14 must be 15 or less
d04 60 (end defrost : = 6°C ; if to high ===> E1 error at end of defrost)
d05 5 (max time of defrost , if to low defrost incomplete, imperfect)

f22 = 18 ( normaly 20 ===> +2°C : if tp3 > f22 , fan starting at low speed , if to high ===> E1 error might append


Thas is line1, line2, line3 ?

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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar MHz » Sam Jan 07, 2017 1:21 pm

fcaracol a écrit:D04: 60 -> 45
D05: 5 -> 3
F21: 1 -> 1
F22: 20 -> 18
A14: 3 -> 30

hello,
these are the defrost parameters, do you think the E01 appears during a defrost cycle? E01 means HP alarm and is possible when defrosting is too long ( as evaporator T° is rising up to 70/80°C and overall pressure in the gas circuit is then rising...
  • D04 =T°c end of defrost, now 4.5°C, This is high, i would even lower to 20, or 2°C.
  • D05 :max defrost time now 3mn, is better.
  • One thing to do is to be in front of the machine when it is defrosting and to display the tp.Tp3 which is the evaporator entry T°C .... and monitor what happens...
    You will see a variation from -15 or -20°C to 4.5°C at which time the you will see vapor coming out of the evaporator and should hear the V4V inversion ( end of defrosting and again heating mode) After inversion you will see also the Tp3 still rising upto 30 or 40°C.
  • F22 : ventilation pressure during defrost: i never modified these
Another reason of E01 is lack of water flow. Be sure the water filter at machine entry is clear,a nd check the flow as illustrated in this post http://www.chaleurterre.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=68133#p68151
Another reason of E01 could be a lack of gas. If gas is lacking the compressor will run empty and overheat, also the power delivered is heavily reduced, and electricity consumption will raise as the machine will hardly reach the T°C set.
A good health indicator of the machine is the deltaT, thatt is T°C difference between water output and input, taht is Tp2-Tp1 ( it should be 7 + ou - 2) . You can read these values at the display :
  • Navigate to tp.Tp1, Tp2, Tp3, Tp3
  • Tp1= water return value is the value displayed by default
  • Tp2= water output value si the water temperature.
    then you can compute Tp2-Tp1
  • Tp3= evaporator gas entry temperature
  • Tp4= air temperature at evaporator air entry
Monitor and give us feedback!
The pressure when it was stoped was 1,25 BAR now is near 2 BAR (some times more, some times less).

You are talking of the water pressure as displayed on the manometer of the machine? Yes these are normal values, when the machine stops the pressure is lower and when the water pump runs and T°C raises, the water pressure will raise too.
In the end of the month of December I receive a bad surprise, the electricity bill.

Your PHRT12 is consuming ~3kwh per hour of running. So the total amount will depend on how long it runs.
You say the machine stops with water T°C at 50°C, may be you can lower the Temperature setting ( HEAT value?) to stop at 40°C
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar fcaracol » Sam Jan 07, 2017 3:38 pm

Thanks jld82 and MHz for your reply.

Probably the problem of the Error E01 isn't the defrosting but the filter cleaning or the lack of gas as you say. Where I live, the ambient temperatures at night last week was between 6ºC and 8ºC.

jld82 a écrit:put the circulator speed on 3

How can I do that?

I've Change the parameter to:
D04 -> 20
D05 -> 3
A14 -> 15
F22 -> 20

jld82 a écrit:Thas is line1, line2, line3 ?


I have at home a Three-phase electric power. The line1, line2 and line3 is the three phases. For Example, in the month of December I have spend (15,815 kW + 1,733 kW + 7,890 kW)*31days = 788,578 kW. In the month of October I have spend (2,521 kW + 1,467 kW + 1,392 kW)*31days = 166.780 kW.

I notice that, even when the Technibel is in stand-by (turn on but not working) the electricity consumption is still high. Only when I turn off the Technibel on the electic switchboard, the electricity consumption goes back to nornal.

MHz a écrit:Monitor and give us feedback!

I've took this values today at 12h30:
TP1 -> 50
TP2 -> 51.1
TP3 -> 19.7
TP4 -> 18.3

I've change the HEAT values to 40 as you said and will wait some days to check if it makes a difference on the electricity consumption.

I leave here some pictures of the installation.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar MHz » Sam Jan 07, 2017 4:03 pm

fcaracol a écrit:I notice that, even when the Technibel is in stand-by (turn on but not working) the electricity consumption is still high. Only when I turn off the Technibel on the electic switchboard, the electricity consumption goes back to nornal.

Do you have the additional heating box ( called MCE by Technibel) attached to the heat pump, these heaters may work...even if the compressor is off...
MHz a écrit:Monitor and give us feedback!

please provide values when the heat pump compressor is running, important to see the deltaT
I leave here some pictures of the installation.

Is the heat pump heating the solar tank? do you have a drawing of your system?
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar fcaracol » Sam Jan 07, 2017 10:05 pm

MHz a écrit:Do you have the additional heating box ( called MCE by Technibel) attached to the heat pump, these heaters may work...even if the compressor is off...

Didn't see nothing. Is the MCE inside the Technibel PHRT 12?

MHz a écrit:Is the heat pump heating the solar tank? do you have a drawing of your system?

I've made a drawing, I'm newbie in this area so I hope you can understand.

Image

The compressor in not working right now, I'll send the TP1, TP2, TP3 and TP4 values when it starts.

I've notice some significant reduction on the electricity consumption after 13h since the reduction to 40ºC.

Image
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar MHz » Dim Jan 08, 2017 1:05 am

fcaracol a écrit:Didn't see nothing. Is the MCE inside the Technibel PHRT 12?

If you can send us a picture of the PHRT12, i can tell you. Th electric heaters are inside a box atop/side of the heatpump. You probably have not a MCE , but rather an electric heater atop of the solar tank?
I've made a drawing, I'm newbie in this area so I hope you can understand.

Ok nice, is the drawing with the real tubing or just to show the differnt flow ways?
i understand the following :
  • the solar tank is the heart of your system,
    • providing hot water to the house through "house tubing" and
      possibly to the heating floor? .
    • heated by the solar panel
    • and/or heated by the PHRT
    • and/or heated by an additional electric heater? (in case the PHRT is down and not enough sun...)
  • if not enough sun, the solar tank can be heated by the PHRT; this is done by activating the electric 2WV
  • if enough sun, the solar tank is used to heat the heating floor; this is done by ?? activating electric 2WV? and activating circulation pump?
    Normally the PHRT has a circulation pump inside, so why a 2nd circulation pump?
  • the PHRT will heat the floor or solar tank, water flow is redirected by activating electric 2WV
  • Can you tell me what are the 2 "Water press tank" for?
I have almost understood the system, but i need some more info on the regulation system,
and if possible a drawing of the internal of the solar tank ( do you have 1 or 2 or 3 heat exchangers inside)

I've notice some significant reduction on the electricity consumption after 13h since the reduction to 40ºC.
Right the HEAT setting was 50°C, probably to provide hot water in the house, but for floor heating you only need about 30-35°C. In fact if you read the specifications of the PHRT,you will see its performance is dropping if you ask high temperature water output ( >40°C)
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar bubus » Dim Jan 08, 2017 10:28 am

HI
.. In fact if you read the specifications of the PHRT,you will see its performance is dropping if you ask high temperature water output ( >40°C)

http://docsp.argoonline.it/technical%20documents/_layouts/paginecustom/download.aspx?doc=http://docsp.argoonline.it/technical%20documents/TEC/10121693_TEC_EG_TEC-PHRT7-16.pdf
phrt.jpg

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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar vile-coyote » Dim Jan 08, 2017 10:52 am

hello,

one remark on your schematics,
I saw two electric valve on the diagram, probably to isolate the heat pump from the system and to determine the direction of the flow. ?
this can be the problem, these electric valve can reduce the flow too much, then you get err01.

can you implement the description and the meaning of this valve ?
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar MHz » Dim Jan 08, 2017 1:19 pm


The diagram shows that the machine will consume almost 1KW more for 50°C water output than for 40°C at -2°C, whereas the delta is around 0,5KW for air T°C>5°C
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar fcaracol » Dim Jan 08, 2017 4:03 pm

MHz a écrit:If you can send us a picture of the PHRT12, i can tell you. Th electric heaters are inside a box atop/side of the heatpump.

Image


MHz a écrit:Ok nice, is the drawing with the real tubing or just to show the differnt flow ways?

It's just to show the different flow ways


MHz a écrit:providing hot water to the house through "house tubing" and possibly to the heating floor?

Yes

MHz a écrit:and/or heated by an additional electric heater?

Doesn't seams to have an additional electric heater


MHz a écrit:if enough sun, the solar tank is used to heat the heating floor; this is done by ?? activating electric 2WV? and activating circulation pump?

There is a thermometer to check if the temperature is higher than 35ºC then the floor is heated, if not the circulation pump is turn off, to prevent cold water in the shower.


MHz a écrit:Normally the PHRT has a circulation pump inside, so why a 2nd circulation pump?

The system was installed without the PHRT. Then the people that installed told that was better to add a PHRT to help in cold days. I guess is because of that.

MHz a écrit:Can you tell me what are the 2 "Water press tank" for?

Sorry, don't understand why.
Image
The one on the left is with pressure at 0, I guess it's not working. It seams to me that is full of water.


MHz a écrit:I have almost understood the system, but i need some more info on the regulation system,
and if possible a drawing of the internal of the solar tank ( do you have 1 or 2 or 3 heat exchangers inside)

:( Don't know

Still didn't get the TP1, TP2, TP3 and TP4 with the compressor turn on. The Compressor work for less time, and when I go out to check is still not working.

Thanks bubus for the diagram.

vile-coyote a écrit:I saw two electric valve on the diagram, probably to isolate the heat pump from the system and to determine the direction of the flow. ?
this can be the problem, these electric valve can reduce the flow too much, then you get err01.
can you implement the description and the meaning of this valve ?

Dont' know what the valve does. I think it's better to call a friend that work in this area to help me out. I'll ask him to check if the valves is the reason for flow drop and causes the E01.
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar MHz » Dim Jan 08, 2017 5:02 pm

MHz a écrit:I have almost understood the system, but i need some more info on the regulation/control system,
and on the internal of the solar tank ( how many heat exchangers inside)

hello,
By looking again at your pictures, I have come to the solution outlined in the schematic below. I concluded that the solar tank has two heat exchangers: 1 for solar, 1 for heatpump and that the main tank water is used for house tubing.
The system operation is as follows :
  • when enough sun : solar panel will heat exchanger1, heating possible by heatpump or circulation pump
  • when not enough sun : water heating by heatpump, and when water hot, => floor heating by activating 2WV
  • heatpump heating floor=>activating heatpump+2WV
  • heatpump heating tank =>activating heatpump
  • tank heating floor =>activating circulation pump,+ deactivating heatpump
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install_diagram.jpg
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar MHz » Dim Jan 08, 2017 5:36 pm

Ok for the heatpump picture, there is no additional MCE heater box aside of the heatpump
Doesn't seams to have an additional electric heater

If you look at the top of the solar tank , ther is a red buble this could be an electric heater or a placeholder for it. Could check if you can see a trademark of the tank?
There is a thermometer to check if the temperature is higher than 35ºC then the floor is heated, if not the circulation pump is turn off, to prevent cold water in the shower.

Ok, i think you meant a thermostat? to control powering the circulation pump.

MHz a écrit:Can you tell me what are the 2 "Water press tank" for?

ok these small tanks are exapansion tanks to compensate for volume expansion as the water is heated. You should be aware that they function correctly otherwise you may loose water through the security groups when pressure gets over 3 bars.
Still didn't get the TP1, TP2, TP3 and TP4 with the compressor turn on. The Compressor work for less time, and when I go out to check is still not working.

You should check how the heatpump is actived. If you look at the cables at top right side of the machine ( when you are in front of it), you will see powercables, but also a command cable, just follow that (2wire)cable and it will bring you to the controller, possibly in the fuse box.
To run the heatpump, you have just to close a circuit by bridging the two wires, this is done through a relay controlled by a thermostat or directly by a thermostat

Dont' know what the valve does. I think it's better to call a friend that work in this area to help me out. I'll ask him to check if the valves is the reason for flow drop and causes the E01.

The electric valve is a 3way valve (3WV) that can deviate a flow to one or another circuit. You must check which controller device is controlling the switching of the 3WV ; it might be a relay or a thermostat again.
If there is not enough flow through the PHRT you will get the E41 error.
It seems to me that by default the circuit is to heat the heating floor through the circulation pump. When the heatpump is activated, then one of the 3WV is also activated to build the circuit to heat the tank....and the floor or not?
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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar bubus » Dim Jan 08, 2017 11:12 pm

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Re: Help - Technibel PHRT 12

Messagepar fcaracol » Mar Jan 10, 2017 2:10 am

MHz a écrit:
MHz a écrit:I have almost understood the system, but i need some more info on the regulation/control system,
and on the internal of the solar tank ( how many heat exchangers inside)

hello,
By looking again at your pictures, I have come to the solution outlined in the schematic below. I concluded that the solar tank has two heat exchangers: 1 for solar, 1 for heatpump and that the main tank water is used for house tubing.
The system operation is as follows :
  • when enough sun : solar panel will heat exchanger1, heating possible by heatpump or circulation pump
  • when not enough sun : water heating by heatpump, and when water hot, => floor heating by activating 2WV
  • heatpump heating floor=>activating heatpump+2WV
  • heatpump heating tank =>activating heatpump
  • tank heating floor =>activating circulation pump,+ deactivating heatpump



Image
Image
Image
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