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Controlling PHRIB

Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar burmanm » Lun FĂ©v 20, 2017 12:33 pm

Hi,

If some of the information has already been discussed here, sorry. But I couldn't find matching PHRIB discussions and if I understood correctly this is quite different machine compared to the non-inverter ones.

We're about 5 guys in Finland who bought these PHRIB machines lately from some older storage and have come up with some restrictions and issues and I was wondering if there's solutions for these issues. We tried to contact Technibel to get the PHRIA service manual if that would have answered something, but it's only available from their "private section" which the Finnish retailer isn't interested in providing to us.

So, to the issues. Is there a way to read the data of PHRIB operations somehow (to Arduino/Raspberry etc) ? That is, it would be nice to control this machine from something else than the control unit and also to get some statistics on how it operates. From what we understood, the PHRIB does not have the modbus ability at least officially. And without manual we don't know the NTC values of the temperature sensors either, so stealing data from them is quite difficult.

That would help in solving the issues in cold weather. First of all, the PHRIB is advertised to operate to -20C, but what we found out (sadly) is that it stops at -15C because the parameter 20 can't be adjusted below the -15C value. To modify this somehow we would either need to cheat the NTC sensor or somehow modify the software to prevent shutdown.

Second, like in other Technibels, in this one the defrosting seems overly eager. I've seen ice on it very rarely (it does not run continuously on my house until it's -5C outside so that might be one reason). I'd like to see when it does the defrosting and if I could somehow catch that moment to trigger heating cable to the underside of the box so I wouldn't have to defrost with hot water the machine during winter (the defrosted water is freezing on the bottom plate).
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar dbercy » Lun FĂ©v 20, 2017 2:05 pm

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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar burmanm » Lun FĂ©v 20, 2017 2:29 pm

Unfortunately all those examples are with on/off Technibels.
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar bubus » Mar FĂ©v 21, 2017 1:17 am

hi

in first, welcome to finnish owners of heat pump Technibel

is it usual in your country to heat with air heat pump? have you also a wood stove or other heating system?
burmanm a Ă©crit:If some of the information has already been discussed here, sorry. But I couldn't find matching PHRIB discussions and if I understood correctly this is quite different machine compared to the non-inverter ones...We tried to contact Technibel to get the PHRIA service manual if that would have answered something, but it's only available from their "private section" which the Finnish retailer isn't interested in providing to us.

a link to instal and technical manual with some answers:http://docsp.argoonline.it/technical%20documents/_layouts/paginecustom/download.aspx?doc=http://docsp.argoonline.it/technical%20documents/INS/PHRIB145FAA_INS_EG.zip
on this forum, it's true that this model isn't common !!
in these pdf, you could find :
-some e-drawing to understand interface between Technibel system and Sanyo inverter control
-NTC probe values
...
Is there a way to read the data of PHRIB operations somehow (to Arduino/Raspberry etc) ? That is, it would be nice to control this machine from something else than the control unit and also to get some statistics on how it operates. From what we understood, the PHRIB does not have the modbus ability at least officially

the outside unit is from Sanyo , maybe a SPW model (you can verify labels on outside control board)
the Technibel regulation system delivers water setpoint depending T°outside, T°inside..
the com protocol (Tech, Sanyo) seems to be S-Net

.. First of all, the PHRIB is advertised to operate to -20C, but what we found out (sadly) is that it stops at -15C because the parameter 20 can't be adjusted below the -15C value. To modify this somehow we would either need to cheat the NTC sensor or somehow modify the software to prevent shutdown.

you can set an offset to outside T° on your heating curve
for the couple (T°outside, T°water) example (-20,50) you can put an adjustable resist in // to outside probe to translate outsideT° reading from -20 to 0° and after changes mininal air T° to 0 instead -20. the same changes for the non-heating T°outside
by this way you will never reach the P20 value and heat pump will never stop
.. I've seen ice on it very rarely (it does not run continuously on my house until it's -5C outside so that might be one reason). I'd like to see when it does the defrosting and if I could somehow catch that moment to trigger heating cable to the underside of the box so I wouldn't have to defrost with hot water the machine during winter (the defrosted water is freezing on the bottom plate).

have you remove a tap at the bottom which drain the water outside body and also adjust the level to drain water to this hole?
to prevent ice on bottom you can connect the heating cable in // with V4V which is used during defrost (labeled 20S on drawing )

sorry for the poor English and the brainstorm!

"see you soon" on forum for other questions
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar burmanm » Mar FĂ©v 21, 2017 12:38 pm

bubus a Ă©crit: is it usual in your country to heat with air heat pump? have you also a wood stove or other heating system?


Yeah, heat pumps are very common here (as they save a lot of energy). I personally have 9kW electric water heater also as a backup (in my second heat pump, exhaust air heat pump) and a heat storing fireplace if the temperature goes to ~-25C/-30C. But to -20C the PHRIB should be able to heat the house just fine alone.

These air-to-water heat pumps have of course their issues in cold weather (compared to say ground water pumps), but I've calculated that the difference in total costs is not enough to warrant drilling a deep hole. Especially with the "cheap" air-to-water heat pumps available these days.

The downside of many of these pumps is obviously the downgrading performance when temperature goes down. There's a lot of heat available from these in the temperatures I don't really need heating (at +4C for example my house will stay warm with just heat exchanger + heat from TV/computers/oven etc) and a lot less in colder temperatures.

-some e-drawing to understand interface between Technibel system and Sanyo inverter control
-NTC probe values


Yeah, the NTC values are there, but they don't actually explain if that same NTC is used in every place. I guess that's the outside sensor though. But the outdoor unit has internal temp sensors also and I wonder if they use the same NTC values.

the outside unit is from Sanyo , maybe a SPW model (you can verify labels on outside control board)
the Technibel regulation system delivers water setpoint depending T°outside, T°inside..
the com protocol (Tech, Sanyo) seems to be S-Net


Outstanding, thanks. I'll try to verify the model from the unit to know more. Do you know if the S-Net is used between control unit <-> control box or control box <-> outdoor unit? Or is it just all the way from control unit to the outdoor unit?

In any case I should probably then get a " Sanyo (SHA-KA128AGB) or Panasonic (CZ-CFUNC2) A/C Gateways" unit to debug the system.

you can set an offset to outside T° on your heating curve
for the couple (T°outside, T°water) example (-20,50) you can put an adjustable resist in // to outside probe to translate outsideT° reading from -20 to 0° and after changes mininal air T° to 0 instead -20. the same changes for the non-heating T°outside
by this way you will never reach the P20 value and heat pump will never stop


Technically yes, but this is only available as setting to +- 3C. That allowed me to run until -18C, but not more. At least I didn't find a way to set it even higher.

have you remove a tap at the bottom which drain the water outside body and also adjust the level to drain water to this hole?


Yeah, there's three (3) holes in the bottom. One of them is very badly placed as there's only a little bit of space before the metallic plate that holds the heat pump in balance. This is the one that froze first and then continued freezing.

to prevent ice on bottom you can connect the heating cable in // with V4V which is used during defrost (labeled 20S on drawing )


Yeah, I was wondering if this connection can be used, but I wasn't sure if there's electricity all the time when it's defrosting or if it's just a momentarily to change the direction of the flow. Although in any case I could use the signal to launch heating.

I was planning to add insulation to the bottom plate to avoid water watching the metal (use something like soluble/cellular rubber to cover it) and then heating on top of that to a drain pipe (and heat that one too). Needs quite a lot of insulation to avoid freezing.

sorry for the poor English and the brainstorm!


You already gave me great ideas, thanks ;)
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar burmanm » Mar FĂ©v 21, 2017 1:15 pm

Yep, the outdoor unit is Sanyo SPW-C366VEHN (and it should have S-Net controlling). Now I'll have to see what equiptment I'll need to buy to control this thing..
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar bubus » Mar FĂ©v 21, 2017 11:41 pm

HI
burmanm a Ă©crit:.. I don't really need heating (at +4C for example my house will stay warm with just heat exchanger + heat from TV/computers/oven etc) and a lot less in colder temperatures.

which thickness and kind of insulation ?mono-multi layers?
Yeah, the NTC values are there, but they don't actually explain if that same NTC is used in every place. I guess that's the outside sensor though. But the outdoor unit has internal temp sensors also and I wonder if they use the same NTC values..

not at all
CC1 is the infertace between Sanyo bus and Delta Dore bus(Technibel)
regul.JPG

the NTC values side Sanyo are available in service manual SPW-C366VEH (15k at 0°) for most of them except the discharge probe (pdf pg333)
http://www.icglimited.co.uk/library/web/3.%20Sanyo/2.%20Split%20Manuals/1.%20Tech%20Data%20Operation,%20Maintenance%20&%20Service/SPW%20C186-606%20VEH%20(Elite%20Pac)%20TECH%20DATA%20OM%20&%20SERVICE.pdf
..In any case I should probably then get a " Sanyo (SHA-KA128AGB) or Panasonic (CZ-CFUNC2) A/C Gateways" unit to debug the system..

or simply RCS-TM80BG+ACC-CR-RCS.
the new ref are CZ-RTC2 + PAW-MRC (pdf pg335)
.. That allowed me to run until -18C, but not more. At least I didn't find a way to set it even higher..

to be clearer, have a look to this
it's an example of heating curve between -20°C and +5°C and the way to have the same heating curve but with an offset in reading outside T° what avoid the issue with the Technibel parameter P20
P20_avoid.jpg
P20_avoid.jpg (27.99 Kio) Vu 2393 fois

the only things to do are:
-put R in // to have the expected offset on outside T°
-change P21,P23 with new calculated values

Yeah, I was wondering if this connection can be used, but I wasn't sure if there's electricity all the time when it's defrosting or if it's just a momentarily to change the direction of the flow. Although in any case I could use the signal to launch heating.

4WV is energized when compressor is on during the defrost. easy to verify with voltmeter on connector 20S.

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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar burmanm » Lun FĂ©v 27, 2017 12:22 pm

bubus a Ă©crit:which thickness and kind of insulation ?mono-multi layers?


I don't have the documents available here, but I have in the ceiling an u-value of 0,07 and in the walls I think ~0,15. So not even very low energy on our standards.

CC1 is the infertace between Sanyo bus and Delta Dore bus(Technibel)


Ouh. Then I'll need to check if I can find Delta Dore documentations. While it would not give internal information at least it would allow some "control" over the unit.

or simply RCS-TM80BG+ACC-CR-RCS.
the new ref are CZ-RTC2 + PAW-MRC (pdf pg335)


I think these don't allow computer controlled changes? There's unfortunately a 10-minute only compressor restart-timer to prevent short-cycling. I'd want that extended to 1 hour for example (since the short cycling in this unit really ruins the COP).

To do that without access to that particular option I would need to somehow watch the compressor running state and then when it turns off stop giving it authorization to run for an hour or so. At least I didn't see the parameter defined anywhere in the documentation (but maybe it's just not documented).

to be clearer, have a look to this


Right, modifying the resistance. Yes, that was my backup plan and something I'll definitely do during the summer.

4WV is energized when compressor is on during the defrost. easy to verify with voltmeter on connector 20S.


Well, that solves the issue then, I'll make it run a relay or something that powers the heating cable.
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar bubus » Mar FĂ©v 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Hi
burmanm a Ă©crit:..There's unfortunately a 10-minute only compressor restart-timer to prevent short-cycling. I'd want that extended to 1 hour for example (since the short cycling in this unit really ruins the COP).

with an inverter control you want to prevent ON/OFF cycle ? this control is so poor ?
before modyfing this timer, you could improve the hysteresis of regulation (equal to thermostat on/off)

the proceeding is given pg 301 in service manual pdf (link above)
burmann_sanyo.JPG

the explanations are for the sanyo's air/air systems but i think it can be transposed to air/water syst

hysteresis value (fixed at +/-1°C it seems) = T°H2O reading probe - offset - T°H2O requested by Technibel
with :
-6 < offset < 0
burmann_sanyo_1.JPG

-water probe reading from A2 board (IU sanyo board)

just to test if it's possible to change this parameter with remote controller (if available) connected to A2 board (IU sanyo) and see the effect on inverter control (cycling time improvement or not)
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar burmanm » Mar FĂ©v 28, 2017 3:08 pm

bubus a Ă©crit:with an inverter control you want to prevent ON/OFF cycle ? this control is so poor ?


Yeah, the inverter's minimum is too high when it's warm (it's nearly 4kW in +0C), so it runs, stops, runs and so on.. it could be solved with large buffer tank, but I don't have one available. I try to pump to concrete, but the outdoor unit cuts off too easily.

just to test if it's possible to change this parameter with remote controller (if available) connected to A2 board (IU sanyo) and see the effect on inverter control (cycling time improvement or not)


Yeaps, I've ordered the remote controller, still need to hunt the proper cable. Have to see if it's possible to modify that value, but at least the service manual did not say that it is possible.

Of course, I might reduce my short cycling with better heat recovery controlling also as that's one of the main sources of heat loss. I'm receiving new unit this week / next week, but I have some work to do before I can install it.
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar bubus » Mar FĂ©v 28, 2017 9:45 pm

hi
burmanm a Ă©crit:..the inverter's minimum is too high when it's warm (it's nearly 4kW in +0C), so it runs, stops, runs and so on.. it could be solved with large buffer tank, but I don't have one available.


an other way of improvement to test is explain pg 306,313; it's "demand control"
no need of remote controller, only 1 switch to install on connector cn206 for providing 70% of power
sanyo_demandcontrol.JPG
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar burmanm » Mar FĂ©v 28, 2017 11:03 pm

bubus a Ă©crit:an other way of improvement to test is explain pg 306,313; it's "demand control"
no need of remote controller, only 1 switch to install on connector cn206 for providing 70% of


Wouldn't that mean much higher minimum power then? As the default is 30% or 40% at minimum (confirmed by the electricity meter). Increasing that to 70% would then create nearly ~8kW of power ;)

I don't think the compressor can go below that 30% mark.
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Re: Controlling PHRIB

Messagepar bubus » Mer Mar 01, 2017 8:58 am

Hi

0.7 x nominal power or 0.7 x delivered power ? " that is the question"
this factor is a "limit for operating range", wrote in the text

one strap to put on 2,3 and you have the response ; this willn't break your heat pump
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