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ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar Kaspars » Lun Oct 23, 2017 8:03 pm

199 worked! THANK YOU!
What you think will be best settings for my unit without heater keeping in mind i'm in east europe(winters up to -30, but mostly +5 to -20c).
Next I will probably try to fix circulating pumps if unit will work properly.


Okay, I managed to set up heating temperature and can access all other parameters, but it won't allow to enter FRO parameter setup. I guess I need to order com to ttl.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar bubus » Mar Oct 24, 2017 8:58 am

Hi
Kaspars a écrit:.. but it won't allow to enter FRO parameter setup. I guess I need to order com to ttl.

strange you can't access them at 'higher level' after entering PSS !
they manage anti freeze and supplementary boilers (electrical or other)

for you "dFR"parameters seems to be the most important
they manage the defrost of unit and the default parameters should not match to your area's weather (cold but dry)


if you can communicate with ECH through the com port, you could have access to all parameters (around 150) CNF,CP,FRO,FAN,PUMP,DFR and so, we could verify if they match
a useful accessory in this case could be the Eliwell copycard MW320500
it's a memory we install in TTL port com at back ; the ECH can download or upload all parameters, without software
the use of this device is describe in ECH manual.
you can look for buying this (price ?)

bye
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar Kaspars » Mar Oct 24, 2017 11:01 am

I changed DFR parameters to default, but I could only access few of them. I bought Eliwell from Choc-discount, so programmed parameters are different than default for phrt.

This is how original Eliwell controller looks - https://z-p3-scontent.fvno1-1.fna.fbcdn ... e=59F18391

This is how electric heater looks - https://z-p3-scontent.fvno1-1.fna.fbcdn ... e=59F08062
Dernière édition par Kaspars le Mar Oct 24, 2017 11:38 am, édité 1 fois.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar MHz » Mar Oct 24, 2017 11:37 am

Kaspars a écrit:What you think will be best settings for my unit without heater keeping in mind i'm in east europe(winters up to -30, but mostly +5 to -20c).

hello,
To set the best setting you must have a clear understanding of your system ( and your heating needs) which seems to have the following components :
  • KD60... which is the controller and has an internal display and T°c indicator
  • MC8 unit which contains the heaters ( 6 or 9KW) and a control board:
    There is a relay/circuit which commands the heat pump, when the circuit is closed the heat pump will go from "idle" to "heating", when the circuit is opened the heat pump goes to "idle"
  • heat pump with external display

Here below i try to report my experience,being as concise as possible.
You have two sets of parameters : the KD60 and the heat pump ones. I have tried to list/sort all parameters with their values in a pdf file ( you have to download and rename it as .xls) which has the following tabs:
  • KD60 : where you define your T°C settings, and especially the T°C at which the heater will be started. Beware that you have to handle air T°c values and water return T°C. ( WRTT)
    KD60 computes a "water law" which gives the water return T°C setting for a given external air temperature. ( do not confuse with internal T°c setting)
  • HP_parameters : the list and values of heat pump parameters. It is basically he list as found in the ECH210 manual, but you can report current and previous values.
  • HP_WaterLaw: the hp can have a water law, with parameters and graph as indicated in the sheet. You can disable the water law by setting H31 to 0. The hp operation is the following :
      When in "heating" mode : ( in "idle" compressor will not run)
    • compressor off when WRTT >= setting T°C ( defined by HEAT parameter, or WaterLaw)
    • compressor on when WRTT >= setting T°C
  • KD60_WaterLaw: the hp can have a water law, with parameters and graph as indicated, when the WRTT reaches the computed T°C value, the hp command circuit is opened through a relay. ( and the hp goes into "idle"
NB : in case of troubleshooting KD60, MC8 control board, you can force the hp in "heating" mode by :
opening the MC8 case, and shortcut the HP command circuit/relay
Fichiers joints
Technibel._parametering.pdf
all parameters in one excel file
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar Kaspars » Mar Oct 24, 2017 11:48 am

K60D is no problem, I understand the unit. I have set 21.5 degrees air temperature.
In Eliwell I have set 36 water temperature for the moment. I have ordered com to ttl board, I want to program Eliwell to disable heater and then remove heater (look at pictures, it is burned and looks horrible). Also I need to replace one of the Salmson circulating pumps for the floor heating becasue now it's only heating 1st floor. But that's not a big priority becasue second floor are bedrooms only and 18c is ok for bedrooms.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar MHz » Mar Oct 24, 2017 12:11 pm

Kaspars a écrit:I changed DFR parameters to default, but I could only access few of them. I bought Eliwell from Choc-discount, so programmed parameters are different than default for phrt.

This is OK you can only change some parameters. You can use the values reported in tab " param-PAC" in my Technibel-parametering file i have just sent. I recall their meaning here :
  • D02=T°C/10 setting for start of defrosting cycle , if -10, the HP will start defrosting cycle as soon as T° of evaporator entry ( SD3 sensor) reaches -1°C ( in fact it will trigger the D03 timer)
  • D03=defrosting Timer by default set to 30 mn. It the weather conditions are very wet and cold, you would probably set it to 20',
  • D04=T°C/10 setting for end of defrosting +60 is a good default value, if the compressor stops because of a HP alarm you could lower it to 30.
  • D05 =maximum defrosting time, if after 5mn there still ice on the evaporator , you should check the deltaT and possibly modify the D03. When defrosting operates OK you should see vapor coming out of evaporator as soon as Tp3 value has become>10 °C
NB : recall of T°C checks
  • Tp1= water outlet T°C
  • Tp2=water inlet T°C; This is the default T°C displayed in the HP display. the deltaT value (Tp1-Tp2) should stay around 7 +ou less 2. if the deltaT is lower than 3, either your water flow is too high or there is a gas leak.
    Operating the hp with too few gas may destroy the compressor.
    It is a good maintenance practice to monitor the Ti T°C, you could a system like itow http://itow.fr/site/
    You can click on the link in the footer of this message, it displays my configuration in itow.( by fddling with the menu you can see all statistics available) The initial cost for monitoring power and T°C is around 200€
  • Tp3= evaporator entry T°C
  • Tp4= evaporator-external air T°C
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar MHz » Mar Oct 24, 2017 12:21 pm

Kaspars a écrit:In Eliwell I have set 36 water temperature for the moment.

you mean the HEAT value?, Have you disabled the water law ( H31=0)?

I have ordered com to ttl board, I want to program Eliwell to disable heater and then remove heater (look at pictures, it is burned and looks horrible).

Be aware i am afraid that the heater in the eliwell, is not the one in the MC8 unit, rather it is a cable/cord which is powered to defreeze the water in the bottom of the heat pump so ice cannot build up and possibly break the fan blades.
To disable the heater you have to remove its electric breakers. Setting the value in the KD60 is not enough, as when the WRRT is too low, KD60 decides to start both hp and heater. ( i never found which value should be changed to fully disable the heater)

Also I need to replace one of the Salmson circulating pumps for the floor heating because now it's only heating 1st floor. .

You should first check carefully why the 2nd floor is nomore feeded...
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar Kaspars » Mar Oct 24, 2017 12:33 pm

In march heat pump service guys done their best to start the unit, because heater was burned and then we found eliwell was burned too. I ordered eliwell controller, they have repaired heater, but after few days heater burned again. Then they noticed that one of the heating floor pumps are dead.
Please be noted that they do not specialise with technibel units, there are no technibel specialists in the country. I want to remove heater unit or if I can get one cheap, replace it with new. If it's really cold, I can heat boiler with electricity to heat the water temperature in system.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar bubus » Mar Oct 24, 2017 2:07 pm

hi

what a sad historical!

from this schematic , add or remove devices
kaspars_2.png


if you need installation manual (with electrical drawing) in english from Technibel and Baxi
they are here:
-Ambiflow:
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwj56smPiovXAhXDPxQKHSQJD6QQFgg9MAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Finterpart.partsarena.eu%2FSystem%2FDATA%2FDx%2FDS1%2Finstallation%2F3650%2Fi51-3650%2Fi51-3650.htm&usg=AOvVaw3yotzDG34Vy7EPC83lytd_

https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj56smPiovXAhXDPxQKHSQJD6QQFghJMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Finterpart.partsarena.eu%2FSystem%2FDATA%2FDx%2FDS1%2Finstallation%2F3649%2Fi51-3649%2Fi51-3649.htm&usg=AOvVaw1za3-9LmVGatzPgaoN0Rer
-PHRT generator:
http://docsp.argoonline.it/technical%20documents/_layouts/paginecustom/download.aspx?doc=http://docsp.argoonline.it/technical%20documents/INS/T10115011_INS_GB_TEC-PHRT7-16.pdf

-MCE electrical heater which have burn+aquaset parameters (controler inside home):http://docsp.argoonline.it/technical%20documents/_layouts/paginecustom/download.aspx?doc=http://docsp.argoonline.it/technical%20documents/INS/MCED089ZAA_INS_EG.zip

if you need other one manual, ask us

if you use controler at home (aquaset), it should be the master regulation, and so the ECH regulator ( the slave) is not used for water regulation but only for security (defrost ...) that is why the setpoint on ECH should be set at max as 55° for example and H31 =0 (SP no outside T° dependant)
the aquaset provides the water heat control to heat pump by only contact ON/OFF ; contact without voltage

Kaspars a écrit:... we found eliwell was burned too...

have you try to disassembly it ? if you stll have it, you can open it (with 4 hands!) and take pictures of the burned parts (front and backside), we can tell us if it can be fixed
if shipping cost to France are not expansive, i can try to fix, change the visibility (768 to 258) of all parameters and send you back as spare

bye
Dernière édition par bubus le Mer Oct 25, 2017 9:38 am, édité 2 fois.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar Kaspars » Mar Oct 24, 2017 2:25 pm

Wow, thanks for help again!

I will get home and try to check aquaset settings. I will take pictures of Eliwell also. The main thing as I said is to disable and remove heater as I cannot find used one for cheap.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar MHz » Mar Oct 24, 2017 2:32 pm

Kaspars a écrit:Then they noticed that one of the heating floor pumps are dead..

So you had 2 hpumps? and now only one?
I want to remove heater unit

You can remove completely the MCE unit, and then you control the heat pump only with a thermostat connected on the heat command circuit (close= put hp in heating mode)

if I can get one cheap, replace it with new.

you could buy an electric heating boiler and insert in the heat pump water circuit; you have to command it manually or by thermostat, see products here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMPTEC-HEATRAE-POTTERTON-ELECTRIC-CENTRAL-HEATING-BOILER-4KW-6KW-9KW-11KW-12KW-/302235005999?var=&hash=item465e9c342f:g:8zsAAOSwx6pYsYXn
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar Kaspars » Mar Oct 24, 2017 2:47 pm

Yes, but I have no knowledge of how to remove heater unit. That is what I want to learn. Before that of course I want to program the heat pump so it knows there are no heater unit.
I do not want to buy anything expensive for this heat pump, becasue we have no guarantee that it won't break again. I have already put 1kEur into this. And as I already said - there is no service in this country that want to touch this unit. Even the distributor that sold Baxi Ambiflo 8 years ago doesn't have any idea what to do with this unit, they sold it and that's all.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar MHz » Mar Oct 24, 2017 6:08 pm

Kaspars a écrit:Yes, but I have no knowledge of how to remove heater unit. That is what I want to learn. Before that of course I want to program the heat pump so it knows there are no heater unit.

Well my understanding is that the heater unit is a box in which goes the water outlet of the heat pump.
Thus you will have to remove the full box and reconnect the water outlet to the one that goes inside your house.
With respect to the electrical wiring : same thing, you remove everything and you should remain with two cables going out from the heat pump :
  • one is the power cord, just plug it in adequate electrical breaker
  • the other one is the wires of the heat command circuit, just plugin to a thermostat ( or even to a switch for testing
et voila!
I do not want to buy anything expensive for this heat pump, because we have no guarantee that it won't break again.

what i suggested was to buy an electrical heater which you can keep it anyway as additional heating supply even if you have to change for another heat pump. ( an electrical heater is not so expensive, and it comes fully packaged)
The average water flow of the heat pump is around 1m3/h. You could look for an electrical boiler of say 6KW, which you can insert between the heat pump and you house heating floor. ( just check that the heater will support a water flow of 1m3/h, that is 17l/mn
For the piping i suggest that you use multilayer hoses with compression fittings, so you can do it yourself without the help of a plumber.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar Kaspars » Mar Oct 24, 2017 7:35 pm

I turned off electric heater and now it shows HE error on controller. What exactly should I do with wires coming from heat pump to heater? Is it ok to leave electric heater off for now?

I have five standalone electrical air heaters, but i don't want COP=1

I have set 22 Supplementary authorization threshold - -7c, but still i can't find how to disable heater alltogether.

Also I have a question - can i turn circulationg pump for heating floors to level 2 or even 1? I believe level 3 that is 200w is too much.
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Re: ECH 210B DT programming for PHRT7

Messagepar MHz » Mar Oct 24, 2017 10:35 pm

Kaspars a écrit:I turned off electric heater and now it shows HE error on controller. What exactly should I do with wires coming from heat pump to heater? Is it ok to leave electric heater off for now?

As the the security chain related to heater is broken, it is normal to have the HE error on your KD60 display.
Just ignore it and :
  • from a drawing i had in my archives, i guess that you have at least 2 pairs of cables which are connected on the heater control board ( see attached drawing)
  • identify which pair is the one of the heat command circuit ( one is for the circuit, the other is for reporting alarms...)
    if you cannot, open the heat pump, the cable for command circuit goes to a small control board with conncetors. The command circuit is between 1 &2. ( see attached photo)
  • connect these to a switch or thermostat to manually control the heat command circuit
This should allow you to operate the heat pump independently of KD60 (if ok you can throw away the heater box and KD60 display)
Fichiers joints
PHRT_command_circuit.pdf
the red arrow points to the small board and indicates connector 1&2 for heat command circuit
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Wiring-HP-heater.pdf
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